Comments on: Fruit of the Poisoned Tree http://moaablogs.org/inside/2009/06/fruit-of-the-poisoned-tree/ Sat, 27 Nov 2010 03:45:59 -0700 http://wordpress.org/?v=abc hourly 1 By: Inside the Headquarters » Billions for Homelessus Veteranus http://moaablogs.org/inside/2009/06/fruit-of-the-poisoned-tree/comment-page-1/#comment-605 Inside the Headquarters » Billions for Homelessus Veteranus Mon, 09 Nov 2009 17:03:21 +0000 http://moaablogs.org/inside/?p=302#comment-605 [...] seems from the data available, veteran homelessness should not be a VA priority. As we recounted in Fruit of the Poisoned Tree, the VA estimates homeless veterans at 131,000, down from the 199,000 it reported in 2005. The VA [...] [...] seems from the data available, veteran homelessness should not be a VA priority. As we recounted in Fruit of the Poisoned Tree, the VA estimates homeless veterans at 131,000, down from the 199,000 it reported in 2005. The VA [...]

]]> By: OJ http://moaablogs.org/inside/2009/06/fruit-of-the-poisoned-tree/comment-page-1/#comment-353 OJ Fri, 19 Jun 2009 00:28:49 +0000 http://moaablogs.org/inside/?p=302#comment-353 I didn't mean to wound you, Gina. As you well know the issue of homeless veterans at the VA medical centers is well known to me. My thrust was, that, given that there are no known reliable numbers for the homeless in the US, much less a demographic breakdown for them, *any* numbers quoted in an article, yours or anyone else's, are questionable at best even if a qualifying statement is made as to their source, basis, and an estimate of the statistical accuracy of the figure is provided; and ludicrous without such qualifying statements. I agree that the VA's efforts should be devoted to true veterans, and not psuedo-(whether physical poseurs, or statistical ghosts dreamed up by someone without any basis). A wise man has been quoted as saying "There are lies, damned lies and statistics." Regretably, I felt most of the numbers you used met his expectations for the latter. Sure, someone used them. Where? When? Based on what? What is their confidence level for those numbers? Sorry. But I spent a lot more time in systems analysis than I have in {vintage/antique} sales. ;-> I didn’t mean to wound you, Gina. As you well know the issue of homeless veterans at the VA medical centers is well known to me. My thrust was, that, given that there are no known reliable numbers for the homeless in the US, much less a demographic breakdown for them, *any* numbers quoted in an article, yours or anyone else’s, are questionable at best even if a qualifying statement is made as to their source, basis, and an estimate of the statistical accuracy of the figure is provided; and ludicrous without such qualifying statements.

I agree that the VA’s efforts should be devoted to true veterans, and not psuedo-(whether physical poseurs, or statistical ghosts dreamed up by someone without any basis).

A wise man has been quoted as saying “There are lies, damned lies and statistics.” Regretably, I felt most of the numbers you used met his expectations for the latter. Sure, someone used them. Where? When? Based on what? What is their confidence level for those numbers?

Sorry. But I spent a lot more time in systems analysis than I have in {vintage/antique} sales. ;->

]]> By: Gina M. DiNicolo http://moaablogs.org/inside/2009/06/fruit-of-the-poisoned-tree/comment-page-1/#comment-351 Gina M. DiNicolo Thu, 18 Jun 2009 11:48:48 +0000 http://moaablogs.org/inside/?p=302#comment-351 OJ, you wound me. I guess the circular meaning is the concern over the assets expended. Nothing against the homeless, and I completely agree with you - no one knows the numbers, but news outlets quote them with a seeming air of authority. Take that one step further and categorize this fluid population as veterans and you are tossing money and resources not at a VA issue, but a societal situation. As we have seen and possibly experienced, the vets who need assistance (homeless or otherwise) may be pushed to the side for this nebulous population. And, talk to the guys at Vermont Ave., and they're good with it. They get it, but they are good with it. The homeless healthcare situation at the VA medical centers is another tale of woe for another woeful day. OJ, you wound me. I guess the circular meaning is the concern over the assets expended. Nothing against the homeless, and I completely agree with you – no one knows the numbers, but news outlets quote them with a seeming air of authority. Take that one step further and categorize this fluid population as veterans and you are tossing money and resources not at a VA issue, but a societal situation. As we have seen and possibly experienced, the vets who need assistance (homeless or otherwise) may be pushed to the side for this nebulous population. And, talk to the guys at Vermont Ave., and they’re good with it. They get it, but they are good with it.

The homeless healthcare situation at the VA medical centers is another tale of woe for another woeful day.

]]> By: OJ http://moaablogs.org/inside/2009/06/fruit-of-the-poisoned-tree/comment-page-1/#comment-350 OJ Thu, 18 Jun 2009 01:36:35 +0000 http://moaablogs.org/inside/?p=302#comment-350 This is a discussion without meaning - in that there is no way *anyone* can have a valid grasp on the number of homeless veterans, vis-a-vis the gross number of homeless people in this country. The U. S. Government doesn't have a handle on the number of its citizens, green card immigrants, undocumented/illegal immigrants, or any others in the US at any given time, who are homeless; much less have a demographic breakdown on them. The idea that any number of homeless you might see cited for a given category: males, females. children, families, veterans, etc.; quoted by some government or non-government source has any validity is ludicrous. This is a prime example of GiGo. Not least of all, because as you know and I know, an unknown quantity of the hard-corps homeless, for whatever reason that seems logical to them, are ensuring they fly at low level underneath any radar. We see (or "not see") them all the time in Old Town Alexandria where we live. Of the two dozen of those I regularly see, three of them I am sure are ex-military, maybe another three likely, a dozen unlikely, and all bets off on the rest. This is a discussion without meaning – in that there is no way *anyone* can have a valid grasp on the number of homeless veterans, vis-a-vis the gross number of homeless people in this country.

The U. S. Government doesn’t have a handle on the number of its citizens, green card immigrants, undocumented/illegal immigrants, or any others in the US at any given time, who are homeless; much less have a demographic breakdown on them. The idea that any number of homeless you might see cited for a given category: males, females. children, families, veterans, etc.; quoted by some government or non-government source has any validity is ludicrous.

This is a prime example of GiGo. Not least of all, because as you know and I know, an unknown quantity of the hard-corps homeless, for whatever reason that seems logical to them, are ensuring they fly at low level underneath any radar. We see (or “not see”) them all the time in Old Town Alexandria where we live. Of the two dozen of those I regularly see, three of them I am sure are ex-military, maybe another three likely, a dozen unlikely, and all bets off on the rest.

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